Hating The Messenger For Hate's Sake

There has been no doubt that over the last few years this site has focused on the "Talbotites" -- Kenneth Talbot followers. Some of these are high profile ex-Full Preterists like Sam Frost and Jason Bradfield. And over these years, the Talbotites have been vicious haters of me; Bradfield went so far as to call my house and try to talk to my wife about me and even creepishly stalked out my place of work and called my boss to try to get me fired. All of this and yet the Talbotites continue to have people think they are honorable people.

Well, I want to revisit history; especially in light of Bradfield's latest article. Oddly enough, even with all his hatred, I have respect for Bradfield; always have. Of the pair, Frost and Bradfield, I certainly give creds to Bradfield having a more honest heart. Anyhow. During the years when I left the Full Preterist movement and tried to explain HOW people got into it; and specifically mentioning how Bradfield got into it, Bradfield's hatred simmered. He just couldn't hear what Roderick Edwards was saying -- he hates me that much. His hatred gets in his way.

In Bradfield's latest article, called The Subtlety of Heresy he further explains how he fell into "hyperpreterism".  He says:

Before You Debate A Full Preterist

Okay so you just found out about this weird position called Full Preterism; that says Jesus came back in the year 70A.D. and you want to clobber the next Full Preterist you see with a storm of proof-texts you have ready to whip out. I mean, it should be easy enough to show that Full Preterism can't be true because a lot of things haven't happened yet right? But before you slip on your theological boxing gloves, consider what you're getting yourself into.

FULL PRETERIST READY

Are you really ready to take on a Full Preterist? Do you know their proof-texts? What about all the places in the Bible where Jesus talks about coming soon/at hand/shortly/quickly? Do you know their answers to all of your silver bullets, because I promise you they have an answer whether you think it is convincing or not. If you are not careful, as you attempt to debate a Full Preterist, you may either find yourself become one or making your audience consider becoming one...if you're not ready.

Throwing Calvin Under The Bus to Save Talbot?

Sam Frost, known for his pandering; even as noted by his own "friends" such as Dee Dee Warren -- Frost now attempts to throw even John Calvin under the bus so Frost can protect his mentor; Kenneth Talbot.
Talbot was recently cited as calling for the killing of people who do not "obey" him. Talbot was very clear that when he is in charge, he wants to execute people...people he calls "blights on society" and "road bumps" that he and his followers "don't want in their kingdom". (Read and listen to the comment here)

No apostle in the New Testament EVER urges killing people for their beliefs or for not "obeying" them. However Frost and his murderous mentor are trying to use Calvin to justify themselves. On March 11, 2013 Frost wrote:

"How can someone condemn the establishment of God's Law, when Calvin very clearly approved of the State carrying out the execution of Servetus for heresy? How can they, with a straight face, call Dr. Talbot a murderer?" -- source

The problem is Talbot ISN'T advocating the "establishment of God's Law" -- instead Talbot is advocating his interpretation of "God's law" then saying that whomever doesn't "obey" him and his followers when they are "in charge" will be "just quick executed". All through Talbot's murderous speech, he uses words like "us" and "we" and "our" when speaking of himself and his followers being in charge, executing people and keeping blights and road bumps out of THEIR kingdom -- not Christ's kingdom, but THEIR personalized kingdom.

Next, notice the admission here by Frost -- Calvin [approved of the STATE] carrying out execution. We'll get into the details in a moment to see if Frost posed even this correctly, but just note that Calvin didn't kill Servetus. Calvin didn't call for the killing/execution of people when they didn't "obey" him. This comes down to what Martin Luther called the "two-swords" or "two kingdoms".  Luther strongly advocated that the secular/worldly/civil sword is responsible for keeping order and peace; the outward condition of life, whereas the Church is responsible for keeping order and peace within the spiritual realm of life.

How Clarkian Scripturalism Undermines Christianity

Gordon Clark, originally opposed by the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary when Clark tried to be confirmed within the OPC denomination -- enters into a new controversy even though he has been dead since 1985. Clark was initially opposed mainly because of his concept of "primacy of intellect". In this concept, Clark who was more a philosopher than a theologian advocated an almost humanistic notion that via the intellect, man could rightly conclude truth. Taken with Clark's other teachings which included that there is no such thing as paradox and that the Bible is the Word of God written, a person could approach the Bible as a logician would approach a mathematical equation. (NOTE: a paradox is only an apparent contradiction, not an actual contradiction. So, while the Bible may contain paradoxes, we Christians believe the Bible contains no contradictions)

SCRIPTURALISM: The Bible First, Then God
Clark's position is often called Scripturalism because it emphasizes the Bible over God; or that it claims God cannot be known outside the Bible. While this may at first seem a noble and Christian concept, it in effect is closer to the Islamic idolizing of the Qur'an.  No Christian would dispute that God is most revealed through the Bible but that is not the only place He has revealed Himself; and even the Bible says so.

Dear Dee Dee Warren

In 2006-2007 I left the Full Preterist movement for good. Shortly after that, the leading opponent of "hyperpreterism", Dee Dee Warren approached me to join her in a "ministry" against "hyperpreterism".  With some reluctance, I eventually accepted. For several years and with her full support, I wrote detailed articles interacting, by name with the behavior and teaching of leading "hyperpreterists".

Perhaps the main leader of the "hyperpreterists" at the time was a man named Sam Frost. Frost is known for his arrogance, elitism and his pandering. It eventually came to light that Frost was being allowed to help develop student material for a supposed Christian seminary. I sent an email to the seminary requesting verification; though I never used Frost's name specifically in the email. Next thing I know, the "president" of the seminary had released my email to Frost and per Frost gave Frost full authorization to answer for the seminary. I was shocked. In times past, Dee Dee Warren also would have been shocked and outraged.  But something changed. Talbot offered Dee Dee Warren a free tuition to his seminary. He called her on the phone and flattered her (Rom 16:17-18). At first, (before I could see the entire picture) Dee Dee convinced me we should give Talbot a chance; that there had been some sort of misunderstanding. I began conversing with Talbot on the phone. During at least one of those phone conversations Talbot joked how Frost called him up, perhaps drunk (per Talbot) rambling on about how Frost wanted to sue Dee Dee Warren. I thought perhaps Talbot was beginning to see the real Sam Frost -- a self-serving man with a huge ego.

I worked with Talbot some more. He eventually too offered me a free tuition. I was hesitant to accept it because I have a policy of being as free as possible from conflicts of interests so that I may remain as objective as possible. Talbot told me at the time he would have me forgo the eschatology portion of the course since he thought I had proven to already know this subject.

When Murderous Men Are In Charge

Dr. Kenneth Talbot of Whitefield Theological Seminary advocates that when he and his followers are in charge, they will KILL those people who don't obey him. -- http://thekingdomcome.com/murderous-men

And we wonder how Christians in pre-Hitler Germany didn't see that evil coming? When people; even more when supposed "Christians" will ignore or even worse support the horrific and appalling comments from men like Talbot, it is easy to see how Nazi Germany happened. Imagine if Talbot really was ever "in charge". He tells us outright that he plans to EXECUTE people who do not obey.  Obey what? His interpretation of the Bible?

Anyone who attempts to justify or downplay what Talbot has said here is party to his murderous intentions. To say we must have taken Talbot out of context is naive. Talbot is clear in context that when he and his followers are in charge, they will KILL people who do not obey him. He is clear that he considers people "blights on society" and "road bumps" that he and his followers "don't want to deal with in [Talbot's] kingdom".  And there is no excuse in trying to claim we should look at Talbot's whole body of work -- as if his kindness and "works" in other areas excuse his advocacy of KILLING people.

Anyone who continues to associate with Talbot merely legitimizes him and his plan to kill people.

What More Can Be Done?

When this blog was started in 2006, the intent was to help people get out of or avoid getting into "hyperpreterism" (Full Preterism). It was both a labor of love toward those people who were either in the "preterist movement" or knew someone in it; and it was a cathartic endeavor. But something I didn't realize at the beginning as much is that so-called "Partial-Preterism" is the "gateway drug" into Full Preterism. I less and less find fault with people who embrace Full Preterism because when you look at all the contradictory arguments from Partial-Preterists; it leads a person right into Full Preterism. I mean, when you have men like Kenneth Gentry, Gary DeMar, and their "papa"; Kenneth Talbot all saying that historic Christian eschatology has been so lacking or a "garbed mess" (DeMar's words); so much so that these men like Talbot create personalized eschatologies such as Talbot's Realized Preterism -- it is no wonder people desire to take up their own eschatology as well.

TALBOT TEACHES NESTORIANISM

Rev. Dr. Kenneth Talbot of Whitefield Theological Seminary is known for his devoted followers who while they admit they don't often actually speak with Talbot; they tend to hang on his every word. They listen to his over 700 hours of sermons (p.s. You could read the entire Bible aloud at a moderate pace in just 72 hours).

But those who follow Talbot either from a far or near, are perhaps unwittingly exposing themselves to an age-old heresy.

Talbotism is a type of Cerinthianism or Nestorianism
In short, these taught that Jesus the man and The Christ were distinct. In a 2011 sermon where Talbot was expounding on his personalized eschatology that he calls Realized Preterism, Talbot said this:

"Jesus of Nazareth is NEVER a part of the Trinity. He is the body that was prepared by God to receive the Son through the incarnation of the virgin birth. Those two exist in that hypostatic union, in which they're never blended. The trinity is one thing. The Godhead of the Trinity is spirit, does not have body and parts like man. The man Christ Jesus is a man." -- (wav file)

Modern Christians may not recognize the blatant heresy Talbot is advocating but here is some more documentation as to why the Church has historically considered what Talbot is saying as heresy.

What If God Is Done? Full Preterism is 'The End'

What if God's plan was for His people only? What if God's plan was to save only the Elect and the Elect were only the "sons of Abraham"? And what if the Gentiles who were to be "brought in" were merely the wayward "Jews" such as the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:7-9.
How would this affect you?
A man who goes by the name "RiversOfEden" discusses this possibility during this 70 minute podcast
LISTEN HERE

Download by right clicking this link and SAVEAS.
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The Kenneth Talbot Story: Circle of Control

What follows is an objective exposé of a preacher within the U.S.A. named Kenneth Talbot. As you read this exposé, please take the time and consideration to review the accompanying documentation. The purpose of this article is solely to present a comprehensive picture of Dr. Kenneth Talbot and his influences on various "ministries". This is a very important and necessary presentation, as Talbot's influence on various well-known "ministers" and "ministries" is more profound than many people may realize. It is important to understand who Talbot is before you enroll in his seminary, his church, or validate his approaches or doctrine. The supporting documentation for this article will be throughly footnoted., so please take full advantage of these footnotes; especially if you are a Talbot supporter that desires to make claims of "slander" -- slander is lying or falsely representing -- there is no slander or false representation in this article.

WHO IS KENNETH TALBOT?
Online biographical material on Kenneth Talbot is scarce however I have compiled as much information as I could find.

Gary DeMar Wants You to be a Full Preterist

Gary DeMar of AmericanVision.com is well known not only for his work AGAINST Dispensationalism, but for his work in promoting Preterism. The problem is, DeMar is credited with creating more Full Preterists than any "leader" within the Full Preterist movement.  When confronted about this, DeMar has said that he is not responsible for people taking his teaching to conclusions he does not intend.  However, I wonder how that works if say a supposed Christian minister's arguments repeatedly lead people to Mormonism. Doesn't that minister have some obligation to at least clarify what he is saying and figure out why so many people are supposedly concluding something he did not intend?

Further, DeMar has many glaring examples of not being just an innocent bystander whose work has been misunderstood. DeMar has spoken at Full Preterist conferences with no distinction that Full Preterism has any issues. DeMar has been/is a member on several Full Preterist forums where he posts without any distinction that anything is different between his supposed Partial-Preterism and the Full Preterist hosts.  But of all the things, it is DeMar's view of the Christian eschatological situation that has bred so many Full Preterists...and rightly so for the Full Preterists who follow DeMar's views.

DEMAR THINKS CHRISTIAN ESCHATOLOGY IS GARBLED MESS

The premise by Partial-Preterists like DeMar that drives a person straight into Full Preterism is best cited by one of DeMar's own comments:

"... I'm willing to listen to what others say on an issue, especially on eschatology since it's been a garbled mess for centuries. It's conceivable that so-called eschatological heretics are seeing something I'm not seeing. They're willing to take the risk. Many are not." -- source

Now, think about that for a moment. If Christian eschatology has really been a "garbled mess", then Full Preterists by ALL MEANS should be at the table to help straighten it out. After all, the present "scholars" such as DeMar are part and parcel of the "scholars" who for centuries have been teaching this supposed "garbled mess".  Why should ANYONE turn to these "scholars" who couldn't get it right? Who says that they got it right now?

Do Full Preterists Have Creeds?

Since, theologically speaking a "creed" is merely a stated belief or interpretation on some religious claim; Full Preterists do in FACT "creedalize" every time they write a book or even publish an article or podcast, or mp3 about what they believe.  But perhaps the most specific Full Preterist creed comes in the form of a document released in 2001. The document was penned by several Full Preterists but namely John Noe. It is called The 9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation -- playing on the 95 points that Martin Luther posed to the Roman Catholic Church in 1517.

The 9.5 Theses in effect the most unified position of Full Preterism to date because it is signed by many of the main leaders of the movement.

John Noe, Don Preston, Ed Stevens, David Curtis and William Bell just to mention a few.

If ever, there was a document that could be pointed to that we could say represents the Full Preterist "creed", this document is it.

3rd Generation Full Preterist: Michael Miano -- Interview

In this 70 minute podcast, we speak with Michael Miano from freakedoutmovement.com. Miano has the interesting background of having been a gang member and having spent some time in prison. We discuss his life before and after Christianity and his eventual adoption of the theological perspective called Full Preterism. He recently debated ex-Full Preterist, Sam Frost and discusses that event.
LISTEN HERE

Download by right clicking this link and SAVEAS.
Subscribe on itunes
_{*my purpose in this interview was simply to have Mr. Miano introduce himself and give a little background. It was not my purpose to "debate" anything he said.}

Preterism Update: 2012 Review

Well, another year behind and a new one ahead. As for those interested in what is happening with the "Preterist Movement" (both the Partial-Preterists and the Full Preterists), there is not too many places where you can find out any information. It seems as the sites once considered on the cutting edge of Preterism are now places where people post spoof videos or themselves dancing to chicken songs. (I kid you not; look at what Dee Dee Warren posted -- really?? -- then shortly after that, she posted pics of her as a kid on Santa's lap compared to her as an adult in a Xena Warrior princess get up -- see it).  This is a good sign that Partial-Preterism and Full Preterism are on their last legs.

Well, enough of that. You want to know what is going on right? I'll give it to you straight, whether you buddy up with me or not :-).

Why I Left Full Preterism Before Sam Frost: A Review

PREFACE:

Before anyone asks it, let me answer this question that often comes up. "Why not just rejoice in the fact that Sam Frost has left Full Preterism?"  Well, because if Full Preterism really is the heresy it is claimed to be, it would be like rejoicing in joining up with the Russians to fight the Nazis. The Russian leadership supposedly killed 14-25 million Russians after WW2. Even the Nazis supposedly killed only 6 million Jews.  

I'm sorry, but I've known and interacted with Frost for over 20 years. The man is a fraud. From the time he used to get on the live-talk PalTalk system admitting he was drunk out of his mind but yet "preaching" to people to his even now claiming he has pastor credentials though he was only ever a self-appointed leader of a small group of Full Preterists. If people think this kind of person is a credible source of information, they will be opening themselves up to a con-job.  I don't believe Frost has REALLY left Full Preterism; he has merely left the lay-led movement and now is trying to formulate another version of Preterism, along with his mentor Kenneth Talbot.

Next, some people want to claim I'm "jealous" of Frost.  Really? Why? I left the movement long before he did and I never dreamed of writing a book called "Why I left Full Preterism". Frost and I have NEVER gotten along even while we were both Full Preterist. I don't normally get along well with pompous blowhards no matter what their theological beliefs. THIS is the reason I haven't and still do not interact well with Sam Frost and his ivory-tower elitist buddies. I've never been jealous of Frost. Pitty him? yes. Jealous no.

INTRODUCTION:


Pretended former Full Preterist, Samuel Frost is trying to raise his profile by publishing an 83 page booklet which he was trying to sell $14.95...really? Anyhow, the title of the booklet is "Why I Left Full Preterism" which is fitting for Frost's reputation of being self-serving.  But the problem is, Frost HASN'T really left Full Preterism, he is merely trying to develop another kind of Full Preterism which he and his cronies can better control. The "lay-led" nature of Full Preterism never allowed Frost to achieve his vision of a "systematic" form of Full Preterism. Frost constantly tried to make Full Preterism appear "scholarly"; be it by trying to write papers for the Evangelical Theological Soceity (ETS) or rubbing elbows with so-called scholars like Gary DeMar, Kenneth Talbot and Kenneth Gentry.

Is Full Preterism "Logical" and "Exegetical"?

In discussions with Full Preterists, you will encounter the stance that they came to Full Preterism because of "logical" or "exegetical" reasons. That is; they will claim they deduced Full Preterism simply by reading the Bible. If you try to point out the origins or claimed "founders" of Full Preterism (such as Max King's), they will claim they either didn't know anything about these origins when they themselves adopted Full Preterism, or they will reassert they came to Full Preterism simply by reading the Bible.  What they fail to interact with is why over 2,000 years of billions of people reading the same Bible never came to these conclusions. But when they do interact with this fact, they normally chalk it up to how they smugly must know something no one else saw. Or that there had been some sort of mass misunderstanding or conspiracy that caused the bulk Christianity to not conclude anything like Full Preterism.

The Echo Chamber of New Preterism

Preterism as a movement has grown from the 1970s, among the Churches of Christ denomination via Max King, to its explosion among the Reformed in 1990s via Kenneth Gentry and R.C. Sproul Sr. to present. But many of the current preterists don't seem to have and don't care about having any knowledge of the history of this theological movement. One explanation I've heard from an otherwise no-name Full Preterist named Jerry Bowers Jr. is that he is content with his lack of knowledge because he claims he didn't come to his conclusions based on anything the various innovators of the movement have said; since he claims he knew nothing about them. He claims he concluded Full Preterism simply by reading the Bible (while he was locked up in jail btw). Even if this is true, it doesn't change the fact that it is ill informed to purposely and continue to have no or little knowledge of the development of the theological stance he is embracing.

RoderickE.com Launched

I'll be shifting more and more of my focus away from theological considerations and more to my personal website: rodericke.com. Hateful souls, like the mouth-foaming Jason L. Bradfield (aka "kingneb") thinks the personal site is some sort of egotistical endeavor. Actually it is an attempt not to be swallowed up by the herd mentality that often surrounds people, like Bradfield's ideological grandpa; Kenneth Talbot.

I don't want to be part of some vague "movement" led by a bunch of ivory-tower shady elitists like Talbot, Gary DeMar and such who fall for the fraudulent claims of men like Sam Frost.

I want to bust out of being defined by the false narratives so painstakingly constructed by these janitors and truck drivers with an Internet connection. Now, I don't say that because I think I'm better than them, but because I UNDERSTAND my place in all of this.  You don't see me going around calling myself the "president" of this or that or claiming I am a "pastor" even though Frost who claims such was NEVER a Christian pastor and only ever "ordained" by the state of Florida.

Now, I said all of that to explain why I am moving to a more POSITIVE position. At rodericke.com I will rarely talk about theological matters and hopefully NEVER about these frauds. I want a place where I can address more pressing issues. I would like interact with HONEST people. People of integrity of any background.

Thanks

Preterist Debate: New Blood VS Washed Up Has Been

Yeah, well the title of this article is meant to be a little humorous. The debate is between Full Preterist Michael Miano and egotistical, panderer and pretended ex-Full Preterist Sam Frost.

Some wonder why Frost wants to debate Miano; not that Miano is chump-change but Frost always thinks so highly of himself, it's surprising that Frost wouldn't go after bigger fish. Some have speculated it is because Frost wants to test out his arguments against...to use Frost's type of speech...an "ahem, uneducated non-scholar". Miano fully admits he doesn't have all the background Frost does; yet ironically all of Frost's "ahem" -- seminary education didn't keep him from falling into what he now considers a very bad heresy. Matter of fact, the reason I say he is only a pretended ex-Full Preterist, is because there is every indication that Frost simply wants to dictate how Full Preterism is presented and since he couldn't do that from within the movement; he has taken the opportunity to act like he wrote off the movement, simply to turn around and offer another form of Full Preterism called "Realized Preterism".

Anyhow the debate should be interesting to watch. The debate is FREE

WHEN: Jan 5th 2012, 12pm-4pm
WHERE: Fort Myers Villas Civic Association 2306 Sunrise Boulevard, Fort Myers, Florida 33907
CONTACT: http://freakedoutmovement.com/CONTACT.html

Reply to Michael Miano's Church Error article

I had the pleasure and honor of being a guest on Michael Miano's podcast. Now, some people may scratch their head at me using the words pleasure and honor since Miano is a known promoter of Full Preterism; something I have clearly opposed. However, over the years of seeing the deplorable and often dishonorable tactics of the so-called "Partial-Preterists" such as Gary DeMar, Ken Talbot and now Sam Frost, I am now at the point where I love to interact with anyone who is at least honest. We can disagree and think each other is wrong, but if honesty isn't the starting point, then all the rest doesn't really matter. After the podcast, Miano wrote an answer to a question I continue to ask all Full Preterists:

QUESTION: In light of the indisputable fact that 2000 years of historical Christianity, across all denominational lines has been united on the 4 main eschatological points, and if Full Preterism is true; then why did historical Christianity get it so wrong?

I will quote and then interact with Miano, as I go along.