Thursday, November 14, 2013

The Man Full Preterists Hate the Most

While in June of 2010, then full preterist circuit speaker, Sam Frost said that I am "one of the most abhorred persons in the history of full preterism, it is now 2013-2014 and that honorable title has been passed to a new recipient. There is a fellow who has been a full preterist since the early years of the movement...that's the 1970 for you newbies. Because of the nature of his federal work, he chooses to use an alias. He currently uses the name "Rivers Of Eden" He consistently posts under this name so there is no attempt to hide his identity otherwise. Hey, it's not like he was a seminary president who went on a full preterist site using the name "superpreterist" and told his friends not to tell anyone it was him...oh yeah, that was Kenneth Talbot, the fraud of frauds (that's for you Jason Bradfield, you need a post to steal and repost on your cowardly site). Anyhow, back to the point.

Why do full preterists hate this guy so much? Well, first off, let me demonstrate the kind of hate they show him.  Full Pret, Dave Green often calls Rivers' "Rivers of Evil". (ref)  Although I'm not certain who first coined this name for Rivers, Green's buddy and fellow full pret, Michael Sullivan claimed it was "seasoned" full preterist, Larry Siegle. (ref)

Another fellow on Facebook, presumably a full pret named Joe Simpson even took to the Vaduva-Bradfieldesque approach of trying to elicit violence against Rivers by posting over and over, in what state Rivers supposedly lives.  How is this relevant? It is just bully tactics to try to get someone to shut up.  I've had bullies like Phil Nassens do this to me before, even posting the city where I live and where my daughter went to school.  Why?

But as for the reason these folks hate Rivers so much; it is because he is demonstrating what full preterism is if applied consistently. And if applied consistently, full preterism destroys a person's faith...or at least their ability to claim they are Christian in any historical sense.

To understand what is meant by consistently applied full preterism we must understand full preterism premises

  • It's all about audience relevancy
  • All is fulfilled

These two points sum up, beyond just "Jesus already came back" what it means to not only be a full preterist but how to think like a person who can become or is a full preterist.

What I mean by this is that even people like Gary DeMar is a "preterist" who thinks and speaks like this -- that it's all about audience relevancy (who is the Bible speaking to - especially the "endtimes" texts) and that all is or has been fulfilled.  DeMar and his fellow "partial preterists" are INCONSISTENT preterists because they do not fully apply these premises.  However, so-called Full Preterists are ALSO, inconsistent preterists because now that a man like Rivers is trying to apply the premises consistently, full prets are up in arms.

What gets full prets in a tizzie is that Rivers tells people that the audience was only the first century Christians -- who according to Rivers were only converted Abrahamic peoples (ie Jews). Rivers claims that the use of term "Gentiles", at least in the N.T. is referring to wayward sons of Abraham who may have been away from the Holy Land.  Verses like John 4:22, where it is said that "salvation is of the Jews" may appear to support Rivers' claim.

But this alone isn't enough to make full pret stars like Don Preston call Rivers a "racist and an atheist" as Preston has called Rivers in attempt to dismiss Rivers' debate challenges to Preston.

Rivers also takes the "all is fulfilled" to a very consistent level. Like his fellow full preterists, Rivers says all was fulfilled by the year AD70. In this way, Rivers agrees with ALL full prets. But when Rivers says this, he really means it. If all was fulfilled by AD70, then there is a different situation going on, a situation that negatively affects not only Christianity's role in the world, but even full preterisms'  Here are some examples if all is fulfilled.

  • No more pastors (Eph 4:11-16, 1 Pet 5:1-4)
  • No need for anyone to teach anyone else about Jesus (Heb 8:10-13)

What do these notions do to the concept of "authority"? Who would go to a Church let alone sit under a full preterist "pastor"? Who will buy John Noe's latest self-promotion book?
It's no wonder that full preterists -- especially those in "authority" like Preston and Green (with his minor following) and Michael Miano with his pastorate, MUST oppose someone like Rivers.  He is a danger to their gigs.

You know Rivers must be doing something when the full prets start to pile on. Preston has even been on Miano's radio show trying to tamp down anyone looking into what Rivers is saying. Granted, Miano has had Rivers on his show too, however I'm having a problem finding a link to that show. I hope it hasn't been deleted as has been done to Rivers when he did podcasts with full pret Michael Loomis.  It got so bad at one point that Loomis received threats of withdraw from supporters for having Rivers on his podcasts.

Oddly enough, Preston got on Miano's podcast disparaging people like Kenneth Gentry for only acceding to a type of fulfillment instead of a "real end".  Well, Rivers IS advocating a "real fulfillment/end" but his fellow full prets hate him for it.

For more examples of the piling on hatred of Rivers, take a look at this Facebook thread (before it is deleted).

Lastly I wanted to debunk some LIES going around about Rivers:

  • His real name is Chris Camillo -- per Rivers, that is another alias he used early on.
  • He teaches Christian Identity doctrine -- yet Rivers never quotes their material, only Bible verses.
  • He is a racist -- this comes from the falsehood of saying he teaches Christian Identity.
  • He is an atheist -- this comes from the falsehood of thinking that if all is fulfilled, then there is no faith.
  • He is lying -- yet people who say this about him, never tell us what he is supposedly lying about.
  • He is not a full preterist -- yet he meets all the beliefs FPs share. He's just more consistent.
  • He is a hyperpreterist -- this comes from FPs who claim they are not hyperprets.
  • He is a showboat egotist -- yet he doesn't even have his own website and doesn't sell books.

So, even though I no more agree with Rivers than I do with any other Full Preterist, it is worth your time if you are a Full Preterist or studying Full Preterism to contact Rivers (I call him the Martin Luther of Full Preterism). See what he has to say. Listen to why Full Preterists hate him so much they want to silence him at all costs.

Rivers on Facebook

As soon as Michael Miano gives me the links, I'll post the links to podcasts he did with Rivers and with Preston where Preston talks about Rivers.
As promised, here is a link that has all the aforementioned podcasts:
Just note that Miano wasn't originally this hostile to Rivers when he first spoke to him. He didn't call him "RiversOfEvil" when he first spoke with him. This is what happens in cults; even a person as independent and bold as Miano will eventually follow his "leaders" Don Preston.  Miano is now even blocking Rivers on Facebook because he doesn't like it when Rivers "insults" Preston (ie, doesn't kiss the hind end of Preston like all other FPists do)


Anonymous said...

We already have read several comments/articles by Rivers of Eden (ROE) on different religious forums and eschatological websites and all We can say is this man is So full of himself, He thinks he's some sort of a bible scholar whom you cant argue with in other words "EGOtist".

It's not hard to conclude that this man is just a self proclaimed fraud like most Hyperpreterist diehards (Don Preston *cough* ) Much more when he denied the diety of Christ as God who was made manifest in the flesh on one forum Just finally sealed the Heretic coffin for him.

This heretic self Proclaimed so called "Reformist" don't honor the Church Fathers and Established Christian creeds and they think they are the only ONE right and 2000 years of historical Christianity is wrong. The said fact is they are not the only one claiming to be The real True One's. Other CULTS like them are claiming to be the only true Christianity like Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist and the Gnostics whom the Full Pret borrowed the heretical Non Physical Resurrection doctrine.

This Unpreterist author is speaking the Truth. And it's great to know somebody an Insider like him is exposing this Frauds that still deceive many with their Heretical "All is fulfilled in 70 AD doctrine". Believe the canon of Scriptures and don't let them "Take Away" your Bible. Truth is Open for everyone and not for Some select few who thinks they are the real deal while the rest is wrong.

After years of scholarly research on this matter and studying Hyperpreterist doctrines. We conclude its a 100% False and Heretical doctrine.

Also a little food for thought for HyperPreterist. Did they know that JOSEPHUS "Lied" in some of his writtings, that Romanized convert is found to altered some of his writings to fit the prophecy yet the Full and Partial preterist put their Faith on this Man Hmmm.

also pardon to our Partial Preterist or "Historical" preterist brothers.(Gentry, Sproul, Hannegraf, etc) We don't blame you in believing when The church fathers conclude that the "Great Tribulation" happened in 70 AD. Even though we also believe that the "Left Behind" theory by LaHaye, Jenkins and others is a false eschatology. They Got it Right that the Great Tribulation will still be in the future So better prepare.

Christ said it will be unparalleled trouble ever since the world began, when the church fathers saw and compared it's magnitude to other world upheavals it's great, but not so great compared to the horrors of the Holocaust, World War I and II and more to come in the future. SO the conclusion by the fathers that the great tribulation happened in 70 AD by the Roman siege is a blatant mistake. early Church fathers can be forgiven, they haven't seen the 20th century, unparalleled means it's greater and will not happen again. Holocaust alone with 6 million Jewish casualties just dwarf the Roman seige in 70AD, how much more the "Great Tribulation" which is to happen in the future?

Anyway enough of this morning musings a la Don Preston. So far Roderick Edwards is the most consistent modern "eschatologist" we have seen. Better than LaHaye, Preston, Jenkins, RoE, Gentry, DeMar, etc.

Truth Rules and Christianity Triumps!. Peace in Christ.

Anonymous said...

That's right Rod. I "hate" Rivers of Evil because he's a danger to my "gig." lol

Actually, the only reason I write anything about the guy is because Larry Siegle was recently duped by him, and has promoted some of his soul-destroying errors. If it wasn't for Larry, Rivers of Evil wouldn't even be on my radar. That's why I'm only now talking about his errors even though he's been teaching them for decades. :)

Dave Green :)

Anonymous said...

Also just want to say Revelations was written in 95 to 96AD according to majority of Scholars, Christian Councils and was validated by Church fathers Ireneus in his writings "Against Heresies" book 5 and by Eusebius. Those where trustworthy men.

Just proving Revelations was written AFTER 70AD is enough to put a nail on the Hyper Preterist coffin. All their eschatology will Crumble to dust.

We are not sure about the Unpreterists author stand about this issue. But we will be waiting for his stand on the Revelations dating.

-ChristianityTriumps -

Anonymous said...

It's Revelation; as in ONE.