Talbotites Caught Red-Handed

Sam Frost and Jason Bradfield are accused of viewing the recent Don Preston/Joel McDurmon debate online without paying the $80.00 fee.  The account is that Preston offered that people who could not attend in person could pay and obtain a password to view live-streaming of the debate. Per the offer, Preston specifically stated:

"By purchasing the live-stream webcast of the PPW Event, I agree not to give out my unique user password which will be used to access the live-feed. This means that you will only use the password to display the live-feed web broadcast for those people or groups who are physically present and watching with you. This policy will be based on a personal accountability metric. In other words, God knows!" -- source

Apparently, Frost and Bradfield somehow logged in without payment and were eventually kicked out of the "room" by the administrator; Joseph Vincent.  This is further confirmed by Frost himself who says in a post-debate podcast with McDurmon:

"Jason and I, you know we were in the, we were watching it online and then uh. I think it was live-stream and then they have a chat room and it was Joseph Vincent that was running the whole thing. Which he was there at the conference, running the whole...[McDurmon interjects]: Yeah I was wantin' wantin' you guys to tell this...this story. [Frost continues]: Well, we were just, you know, we got, both of us. Well, I did, I don't know if Jason, but we got banned. I got banned." -- mp3 clip (complete source @ 36:46-37:05)

So, Frost fully admits something caused him to get banned from viewing the live-stream of the debate.  However he says in the podcast that he listened to at least 90% of the debate online.

Are Hyperpreterists "Conservative"?

After an exchange with hyperpreterist writer, John Noe I was reminded of a descriptor Noe uses in his biography. On most of Noe's books and materials he is described as follows:

"John Noe (pronounced "No-ee") is president of the Prophecy Reformation Institute, a conservative, evangelical scholar, and a member of the Evangelical Theological Society." -- source

Besides the humor of these men, such as Noe and Don Preston starting one-man "institutes" and such and declaring themselves the "president", notice that Noe claims he is a "conservative".  Well, he might be politically conservative or some other sort of conservative, but he is not a theological conservative. Hyperpreterism by its very definition is radicalism; a departure from "conserving", sustaining and maintaining the status quo.

I have broached this issue with Noe, hoping it was merely an oversight on his part and not an intentional misrepresentation. But Noe, in spite of the FACT he is proposing views that radically depart from historical Christianity, continued to claim he is a theological conservative.  So, now it is an obligation to point out that Noe is indeed misrepresenting himself to Christians.

Don K. Preston: A Novice in his OWN WORDS

Don K. Preston: A Novice Teacher

Don K. Preston, perhaps the last active "leader" within the hyperpreterist movement has begun a podcast series he is calling "Morning Musings". In this series, Preston recounts how and why he became a "full preterist".

First, I always think it is amusing how Preston claims he is the "president" of "Preterist Research Institute" as if there is an entire staff of officers.  It is basically just Preston.  But anyhow, during the initial podcast Preston tells us he "doesn't worry about traditions" and "doesn't worry about the creeds" (minute 2:31-2:44).  Really? So, Preston is admitting he is a lone-ranger who only "worries about" his own interpretations of the Bible.  However, Jesus didn't come to found a disconnected faith of radical individualists.  Jesus founded a community of believers with common held beliefs. (1 Corinthians 10:17, Philippians 1:27, Jude 1:3)  This disconnecting from the historic Christian community is the first step to any heresy.  Preston has in essence made himself his master and disciple, whereas the Bible says:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. -- 2 Thes 2:15

Preston tells us from the start that he "doesn't worry about" or rather doesn't CARE about these "traditions".  Instead he wants to listen to his own voice alone.

Don Preston Won't Debate His Own

He goes by "RiversOfEden" because I think he works in sensitive government positions, and since hyperpreterists have been known to even threaten people's families -- he has to be careful. At any rate, it doesn't matter what a person's name is but what they are saying...well.. unless by knowing a person's name allows his opponents to personally attack him, which is probably the hyperprets motives for wanting R.O.E.s name. It is enough that he has been consistently using this alias.

R.O.E. was in the movement from early on. He helped Ed Stevens with some of his articles. What makes R.O.E. different than the average hyperpret, is:

1) He isn't trying to pretend hyperpreterism is "Christian".
2) He takes the hyperpret premise of "all fulfilled" to the logical conclusion.
3) He isn't....well...a jerk like most of them.

Let's deal with each of these 3 distinctions.

I Don't Know You or 'Your Heart' But...

Every so often, some hyperpreterist will respond to something I wrote here or elsewhere but the problem is that person ASSUMES a lot about me and then goes from there.  Such a case happened with a fellow named Brett McNeill, associated with Don Preston's congregation.  He was upset with my reporting of Don's resignation speech.  Brett left some comments but they were so laced with falsehoods I urged him to rewrite them and then I'd post the comments.  He asked me to clarify where he was using falsehoods.  This is where the "Roderick, I don't know you or your heart but..." mentality comes in.  Brett spends a lot of time trying to claim to know me and my heart and instead he ignores the stated FACTS of Don's speech.

I replied to Brett, carefully and paragraph by paragraph displaying the falsehoods within his comments.  What follows is that exchange.  My comments from hereon are in blue.  Some exchange is referring to emails Brett has sent me.  Article and audio of Don Preston that sparked this exchange: http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2010/01/don-preston-resigns-because.html

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Ardmore Family of God -- Don Preston's Personal Cult

Don Preston, perhaps THE mouthpiece for hyperpreterism as Preston is the most published hyperpreterist author and the most widely followed hyperpreterist debater had also been a "minister" of a congregation.  The "church" was originally called the "Ardmore Church of Christ" in Oklahoma.  But in 2007-08, after 16 years of leading the congregation Preston delivered a farewell speech which was more of an admission that his congregation failed and that he was leaving due to lack of financial support.  Listen to it yourself (source).

After Preston left, to pursue more money making opportunities, another hyperpreterist named Jack Scott took the helm.  Scott spoke at a few hyperpret conferences but was never the big name that Preston had been. Scott resigned in 2010 but not before further deluding the poor folks attending that congregation. (More on that later)

But what is revealing is the REASON Preston resigned.  From the ACTUAL speech that Preston gave at the time, he CLEARLY stated he resigned BECAUSE:

1. The congregation wasn't meeting its "hopes & dreams".

2. The congregation was failing to grow.

3. The young people were abandoning the congregation.

4. The congregation was not making it "possible" to financially support Preston's plans.

The audio and the text of the speech can be accessed here, since the congregation website itself has all but cleansed itself of the embarassing episode, not even telling the visitor the history of the "church".  Since the focus on his speech, Preston and his apologists have ATTEMPTED to spin what happened.  To this end, one of the congregation's administrators recently responded in part saying:

"Perhaps a blip of truth thrown into the heresay testimony given here may be helpful. My name is Brett McNeill. To establish some credibility with the readers, I was an officer of the Board of Directors of the church where Don Preston was the full-time minister..."

HOWEVER, we have Preston's own recorded speech and text to go along with it.  The "truth" is there was no HEARSAY, it is was Preston's own words that his defender now wants to revision.  There is no bitterness, simply reporting and reporting that let's the reader access Preston's ACTUAL words -- not the puditry of opponents or supporters of Preston.  And whether a person likes or dislikes Preston or his teaching, Preston's OWN WORDS show that he resigned for the 4 reasons listed above.

JACK SCOTT ERA

Jack Scott only "ministered" to the congregation for about 3 years before resigning.  Why?  who knows, but perhaps the answer can be found in the "sermons" of  July-11-2010 or July-25-2010.

In Scott's resignation speech he states:

"I know in someways many of you feel I've let you down and in reality that is probably the truth" --  July-25-2010

So, once again this congregation gets dumped.  When will they learn that these men are using them?

The personal cult that Preston had turned this congregation into, passed to Jack Scott who also dumped them and eventually it appears turned it over to a man named Oscar Miles who is as much a radical, Christianity-hating individualist, private-interpreter as had Preston and Scott been.  This poor congregation will probably experience the abandonment by this man too.  Perhaps they should consider that God is trying to tell them something?

AD70.net Calls In Don Preston to Shill For Money

After many times begging people to send him money, Mike Loomis the hyperpreterist owner of the hyperpreterist podcast network, AD70.net finally called in the movement's resident "used carsalesman-like" Don Preston. In a 9 minute video; Don Preston urged people to stop supporting "futurist" ministries and churches and instead start sending their money to Loomis.





In the video, Preston claims that the idea that the hyperpreterist movement isn't growing isn't true. This directly contradicts the recent former hyperpreterist teacher, Sam Frost who says the movement ISN'T growing.

FROST QUOTE:

"This is the big deception. It's not "growing". Oh, sure, one here, and one there. And, "Preterism" is not "Full Preterism". Two different systems entirely. Preterism is entirely orthodox. Full Preterism goes way off the reservation. Most church folks have never even heard of Full Preterism. Conduct your own poll." 3/7/2011 (facebook)

Which is it?

That Loomis had to bring out the big gun shows that Loomis is getting desperate. He has openly said he has sunk over $10,000.00 into his hyperpreterist podcast network; all the while not having a day job. His family has to be feeling the squeeze. Loomis is otherwise unemployed. If he can't get his fellow hyperpreterists to support him, his venture will probably go the way of "preterist churches" (as Frost's and Preston's "churches" failed to grow -- ref, hear Preston in his own words).

Assessing the Jason and Sam Show

Jason Bradfield and Sam Frost, long time hyperpreterists have claimed to recanted the heresy but many doubt that at least Frost has really left the movement. What follows is the first podcast done by Jason and Sam AFTER they supposedly gave up "full preterism". I assess what they ACTUALLY say on the podcast and have ACTUALLY said in the past. Listen to this 40 minute podcast here:



Download right click link and SAVEAS

The Martin Luther of Hyperpreterism: Rivers Responds

Hyperpreterism (sometimes called Full Preterism) is a theological perspective and movement that is considered to have began in the 1970s after the rogue "church of Christ" minister named Max King published a series of books advocating the view. Basically, the view is a combination of the following claims or points:

1. Jesus came back once in for all in the first-century (AD70).
2. The collective resurrection of believers occurred in the first-century.
3. The judgment of the wicked and righteous occurred in the first-century.
4. There will be no end of sin or culmination of God's plan for the earth.

I had previously done a podcast with a Full-Hyperpreterist in June 2010, called "The Consistent Conclusions of Full/Hyperpreterism where I discussed with a hyperpreterist that goes by the name "Rivers of Eden" (ROE), the consistent conclusions of the hyperpreterist view, which is that God gathered all Elect and is thus effectively done with humanity and earth. Although I overall disagree with hyperpreterism, I agree that its consistent conclusion is that if God's plan was to gather the Elect AND we assume that happened in AD70, then there is no more to the story.